7 Experts Breakdown the Sydney Sweeney Social Media Drama

An ad about jeans. A storm of global opinions. And a brand caught in the middle.

In this episode of Making the Moment, host Aja Bradley Kemp dives deep into the viral “Sydney Sweeney has great jeans” ad that dominated headlines and split the internet—with hot takes from Donald Trump, Doja Cat, and everyone in between. But was this viral moment a marketing masterstroke or a brand misstep?

Joined by a panel of seven expert marketers, including Hailey Knott, the former American Eagle social media lead, we explore what this media storm reveals about risk, reputation, and relevance in an always-on, always-reacting world.

Here are some of the biggest takeaways for marketers navigating today’s cultural and reputational minefield:

• When does disruptive marketing cross the line into divisiveness?
• Why agency-brand dynamics and internal culture shape crisis outcomes
• Why having a crisis playbook is non-negotiable for bold campaigns
• What Gen Z and Gen Alpha expect and demand from the brands they support

If you are a brand marketer, CEO, or social media manager you do not want to miss this episode! 

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Transcript

Aja Bradley-Kemp      0:00
We need to talk about Sidney Sweeney and we need to talk about American Eagle. And who better to give us insight into the social media firestorm than the former social media manager of American Eagle, Hayley Knott. But that's not all. I called seven of the smartest marketers from around the world to unpack what's going down. So, let's get into it. We've all seen them. Those experiences that stop us in our tracks, the moments that flood our feeds, shift culture, and bring people together.

I'm Aja Bradley Kemp, and I've helped generate millions in revenue and billions of impressions by creating scroll-stopping moments for some of your favorite brands and celebrities. This is Making the Moment, the podcast that brings you  the untold stories, unfiltered insights, and big ideas from the architects behind the moments that matter.

In each episode, I'll show you how to design experiences that not only captivate audiences but also drive tangible value for your organization. Whether you're looking to build buzz, boost loyalty, or drive revenue, I want to help you design customer experiences that truly make an impact. This is for the moment makers and the culture creators.

Welcome to Making the Moment.

Welcome back to Making the Moment. Today, we're covering a moment ripped straight from our timelines. I'm your host, Aja Bradley-Kemp. And if you haven't heard, the Sidney Sweeney has great jeans ad, has everyone from Donald Trump to Doja Cat weighing in. To help us understand how this became the most controversial fashion moment of 2025, what brands can learn, and ultimately if creating buzz is worth the backlash are some of the smartest marketers that I know. 

Melinda Johnson is a senior marketing executive who has worked with the likes of Procter and Gamble and Hankel. 

Jonathan Pease is an award-winning creative who has worked with the likes of Procter & Gamble and Henkel. Jonathan Pease is an award-winning creative who has worked with global brands including Nike, Disney, and Coca-Cola. 

Friend to the podcast, Kim Aimi is an innovator who has worked on the biggest stages on the planet from Super Bowl to the Olympics with Post Malone. 

Jennifer Bickerton helps brands including Kiehl's and Givenchy create memorable multi-platform campaigns that drive sales. 

From Britain to Brooklyn, Sammuel Monnie brings international insight on how to grow purposeful brands. 

And lastly, we have former American Eagle social media manager Haley Knott, who will share her take on life inside the company. Before we get into this conversation, I want to thank you all for coming. And I have to give a little legal disclaimer. All opinions expressed by our guests are their own and do not represent myself, Making the Moment, or Conversate Collective. Welcome everyone officially. 

Thank you. Hello. or Conversate Collective. Welcome everyone officially. Thank you. Hello. So, first question, before we get into the controversy of it all, I wanna get your hot takes on this campaign. From the moment you first saw it, what was your immediate unfiltered reaction? And anything from the creative direction to the model choice. And Haley, since this brand is closest to you in terms of target audience, I'd love to hear your opinion first.

Haley Knott                   3:17
Thank you so much for asking me to be here and for having me. And I'm really excited to share my perspective on this and the choice actually when the campaign first came out leading into the campaign they did some teasers beforehand and there was some speculation in the comment section and I'm very avid social media user just due to my job in general and the culture that I grew up in so I was very locked into the conversation beforehand.

And there was some speculation and chatter about it being Renee Rapp, specifically based on the teaser that they had posted beforehand on Instagram of a blonde woman walking on set, passing a phone to somebody just from behind. So, no messaging, just a teaser. so I was speculating along with the rest of the audience that it was going to be someone like that and also in my experience when I worked there one of the first or one of the campaigns that I worked on was an American eagle mean girls collaboration when the mean girls musical came out um that movie came out. 

So, I thought that that was aligned. She's having a moment right now, Renee Rapp. She just came out with an album. She's a very outspoken personality. And in my opinion, you know, I think she aligns as well with the demographic. So, to say that I was surprised at that choice based on uh the demographic alone before even just the messaging came out um I was surprised 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   4:54
Melinda, what did you think?

Melinda Johnson                       4:56
So, my initial hot take interestingly enough as a black woman it was like you know like a pretty girl wearing jeans. Like I didn't have a strong reaction one way or the other. And I honestly thought it was very regular. Like I didn't see anything all that exciting about the creative. And even though I was around, I was alive when, when Brooke Shields did her Calvin Klein jeans ad, it didn't come to mind.

It just came like, oh, here's another, someone else's tap Sydney Sweeney uh for her sex appeal so that was my initial hot take like yeah and then of course it balloons what it is but that was my I was just like okay like I wasn't moved one way or the other and it wasn't extraordinary creative advertising in my opinion 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   5:39
Sam what about you?

Sammuel Monnie                      5:41
I saw a report about it and like I think like Melinda I just thought oh this is just more of the same and then I started hearing because I think that was like the end of the week then I started hearing some reporting so I thought you know let me go and check this out and when you watch it with the audio and the visuals something fell off and then you start to like peel it a bit further and you start saying wait a minute wait a minute uh did they did they did they know what this is and what they're saying when you hear words like offspring and you start thinking that there's just a weird choice of something was weird and off and then as you sort of dig into it then you start to think wait a minute there are alternate meanings but there is choice being made in what's being said and shown and then you know you can get into this analysis and semiotics and then the marketing and the audience and you start to think there's a there's a bit of an issue here and as we've seen it's blown up into a major discussion point but also a real brand concern brand issue and a customer consumer audience issue 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   6:49
Jen, what was your reaction?

Jennifer Bickerton                    6:52
You know it's funny the first time I saw it I was it was like to me it was a little cringeworthy it wasn't shocking and like and like Melinda said too I wasn't like it was earth shack and you know I didn't have to go back and watch it 20 times like I find her a little bit cringy um she's been in the media a good bit lately I just  I don't know she's very she's beautiful but I found the delivery a little bit like oh and then when the media all started to talk right of course your opinion starts to get swayed one way or another. I don't think it was earth shattering by any means.

I think they got the attention that they were seeking. But I'm certainly not running out to buy American Eagle jeans, but I'm not the market either. But neither is my daughter. I thought it was like, oh, I don't know. It didn't move me one way or the other. But then I really started to read what the press were saying. And I'm like, huh, wow. I don't know how this is going to play out for them. So, my take, I'm clearly not the target audience.

And so, I never saw the ad until it popped up on LinkedIn and they're all like the marketing world. And so without reading it, just looking at the headline and scrolling through I was like another you know blonde celebrity in a jeans added it did a little bit remind me of Brookfield’s um but like I didn't really think anything of it until I started kind of reading comments and the commentary and um but yeah first glance, I was like, I didn't really care much. But also, not being the target audience, I figured out it's just not for me.

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   8:32
Now, JP, what about you? Because you're in Sydney. What did you think when you saw this? And also, would love to hear, you know, what does Australia think of it as well?

Jonathan Pease                            8:43
Yeah, looks similar. When I first saw it, I thought, yeah, that's old rope, right? I mean, we've all seen this concept before, a beautiful celebrity wearing something to sell it. So that felt old and tired. But I then just thought about the name of the business, and it can't be ignored. You know, American Eagle. I mean, it may as well be just called America. So, I started to connect those two ideas and thought, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, America is in an interesting spot, you know, polarized. This could get interesting, 

I guess, is where I first went. And then, yeah, some of the language around jeans offspring yeah I felt like either it was going to do absolutely nothing or it was going to blow up so yeah clearly the latter and yeah look from an Australian point of view people are talking about it and I can promise you they weren't talking about American eagle before that's for sure  I reckon if you shirt fronted people and asked them if they even knew the brand, they would probably, there would be no awareness down here. And now everybody knows the brand. So that's something.

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   9:57
Yeah, it is. It is. For me, when I saw it, I, like many of you, was like, okay, that's interesting. She's cute, selling jeans. But then, you know, you start reading the commentary on it and start putting some of the language together. And it's like, hmm, I don't know if this was the way to go. But, you know, talking about strategy, I really want to dig into that because this is a multi-million-dollar brand. They actually reported a loss of $68 million just this past May. So, they clearly needed to do something to turn their business around.

And, you know, when you're doing this wordplay with genes, genetics and genes, and you have a blonde, blue eyed actress, and, you know, how do you and knowing the political climate that this country is in, you know, how do you not see that potential for the interpretation to go the road of eugenics? Do you think, JP, that this level of controversy was intentional on their part?

Jonathan Pease                           11:14
Look, I think they walked into a casino, so they knew they were gambling. They didn't know if they were going to get the jackpot, right? But they definitely knew they were gambling. So, yes, they did the math. Of course they did. And also, Sydney Sweeney's team did as well. So, they knew exactly what they were playing with. And, yeah, they hit a chord big time. So, I think the thing that I find most shocking is the lack of accountability and the lack of statements from anyone, not to say we agree or don't agree, but just to own the fact that they were having a crack, because clearly they were. And they did the math. 

They figured out, hey, you know, it's going to polarize, but we think we'll end up on the right side of it. Let's have a go. Let's push it. Let's use this language. Let's use this ambiguity. Let's push it. Let's use this language. Let's use this ambiguity. See what happens, right? They definitely went for it, in my opinion.

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   12:10
What about you, Melinda? What do you think?

Melinda Johnson                        12:14
I think JP has an interesting take because I don't know. I'm curious. One could look at it and be, yes, they were super intentional. They knew what they were doing. Or I also wonder whether, you know, they thought they were just getting a big Gen Z star who's hot and leveraged her sexuality and they didn't have diverse voices at the table of women and women of color and different, you know, different voices to say, hey, this might not, this might get you this.

So maybe they were. I don't know. I don't know the marketing team. But it's interesting, JP, I think even you said, like, it's taken a long, took a long time for them to have a response. And I wonder too, like, okay, if it were me, I would take a beat and try to figure out, okay, what do I need to do? What's the right approach? And they chose an approach, which one could say, okay, they leaned into the controversy.

Completely agree, JP, like, who was talking about American Eagle? I mean, I know they are multi-millionaires. Yeah, so I mean, it gave them some buzz. It's just that, like, all buzz isn't great, you know. It's 15 minutes of buzz. We'll see where it goes but yeah I don't know like I that's one of the big questions about this whole thing for me like were they just intentionally doing this or did they just not have was it a faux pas that they've now just embraced because it went a certain way I definitely think they wanted a buzz around Sydney Sweeney no doubt because she's already done previous campaigns I'm in the beauty and personal care sector so when Dr. Squatch used her we were like oh my god look at them but it made total sense because that was a male oriented brand and they were you know like if she had been in an old school carl's junior draped over a car I really think it would make total sense so I think that's the piece that I think they were very, you know, they knew that was controversial. 

I don't, I wonder if they knew the eugenics piece and then it would just kind of fall off a cliff from there. So, I think it's interesting. I don't know. Like I think JP, you're giving them props for being that smart. I don't know. Maybe.

Jonathan Pease                           14:18
Well, yeah, that's smart, but that's sort of, you know, they're playing the game, right?

Melinda Johnson                        14:25
Intentional though on the eugenics piece and the controversy that would start.

Jonathan Pease                           14:30
Yeah.

Melinda Johnson                        14:31
You're always gonna have controversy over sexualizing women, but going down like an angle of white supremacy and genes, G-E-N-E-S, like that's a whole, that conversation definitely took it to a different level and a very polarized level right now in our country. 

Jonathan Pease                           14:50
That's what I was thinking about. Did they really respect their discerning and conscious audience? Because you've got an audience of people who are knowledgeable, informed, educated, interested, curious. And so, if you start doing the wordplay, if they're going to start looking into it and start talking about it and was really was it done with the care and the creativity to really respect be respectful and responsible and to your point.

I think you've raised this then they went silent which was interesting because I was watching on LinkedIn so the first couple of days was oh this is great this is great and they were responding immediately oh thank you thank you thank you and then all of a sudden there was silence and then all of a sudden they turned the comments off and then some and then some people now have deleted you know closed off their profiles so there was a journey to not they wasn't they weren't taking responsibility and accountability they were happy when it was good but when it started when started changing then they went silent then they disappeared then there was this kind of non-statement statement and of late and over the weekend

It's reported that they they've um hired a which is a crisis um sort of management consulting crisis PR company so I think they thought they I think they went in confident they worked they knew they were going to gamble then they didn't realize that the stakes that they were playing and then they got a bit scared then they got a bit confused and then the noise started then they went silent which makes it look like you have something to hide then you say make a non-statement statement then you and then and then and then so it doesn't I think it's not going to help the brand with their audience so again I’m not the target what does your core customer audience stakeholder think 

But more importantly what do the communities and stakeholders, and your customers, think what's it like in a store right now? What is it like for the store staff and what is it like for people who work there? That for me is always interesting because it does is what they did represented of the brand and the audiences they're trying to win with to grow and to sell.

And I'm not sure they are. I tried to do as much research as possible, but how possibly could this win with your core audience who's becoming more multicultural, more diverse over time? And the way you frame the first ad is this is a standard of excellence for beauty, which doesn't jive with your audience. And do they see themselves in this?

So again, but I'm not the target, but that's my concern. Does it match how you're going to grow to turn your loss into a profit the next quarter and the quarter after that?

Jennifer Bickerton                    17:09
Hayley, what did they stand for before this? Because I don't know, and I'm not sure if anybody else does, but what did they stand for before? And how does it relate with what they now have fallen into?

Hayley Knott                               17:20
Jennifer, I don't want you to lose your thought. And I've been taking notes, and I have stuff to say. So don't worry about me. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   17:25
She's been taking notes!

Jonathan Pease                           17:26
Oh, okay. Yeah, exactly.

Hayley Knott                               17:29
He's like, I'm ready for them. And Aja knows this because we worked at several companies, a couple companies together. One that had a very big crisis communication. The other that sometimes needed crisis communication because they were so edgy. And I will say whenever a campaign like this goes out, if you have a smart team that is gambling, you will have a response book ready to go. Every single scenario that is possible.

Right. And you're touching on every person, white, blue, gray straight you are especially in the environment we're living in right now you better be prepared to have something ready to go because God forbid if this puts you under you gotta come back 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   18:17
And Haley, I want you to definitely chime in, but I want to echo what Jen said because that's what I was trying to figure out with this whole scenario. It's like if this was intentional and we're going to play this game and see how people react, how do you not have a plan B, C, D to cover whichever way it goes in terms of response?

And I want to unpack the response in a little bit but as Sam said they there was nothing for days so it's like 

Hayley Knott                               18:54
That’s so much without saying it at all

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   18:57
Exactly 

Hayley Knott                               18:59
Meaning that they didn't think things through 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   19:01
Right because they had all of this you know the head of media and marketing at the outset said, you know, they had all this great, they had this great rollout plan with the ad running on the sphere, 3D ads, AI try on, I don't know where all that stuff, did it come out or not? But it's like you put all of this money behind it, where is all the content where where's all the things if this was your plan if you knew people were going to have this response or you're we were you were willing to play this game you know the results the outputs not matching the intention at least that we're all assuming they had and then we'll get to you know the concerns with the response but Haley what what's your thoughts? What you got written down in that notebook? 

Hayley Knott                               19:52
Well, there's a lot. Just to clarify. So, my last day was the end of Q1 2024. So, March 29th, 2024, which by the way, stock price was at 20, almost $26 at that point. So, they were exponentially in a better place than they are currently just to put in perspective right now. Anyway, two things can be true in all of this, right? I think that it's disingenuous to say that it was just about jeans with a J. If you've taken a history class in fourth grade, you know the connotation of that language. 

You work in a marketing team; you know the connotation of that language. And if something changed, which the marketing leadership did not change in the time that I was there to now, they were so risk averse that when I was there to, we couldn't even post our graphic tees that had alcohol brands on them. They couldn't even allow that. And the reason that I know that there was a PR crisis happening internally, because they went dark from that Sunday to when they made that statement, non-apology statement on Friday, when they're not posting, that means there is a world crushing fire drill happening in there. 

So, to answer your question, I do not believe that they planned for this epic fallout. And that is probably extremely clear to, you know, Sam mentioned those LinkedIn posts right when that LinkedIn or sorry right when the campaign dropped and the LinkedIn post from the CMO and the VP and the creative director and the agency creative director and the agency owner coming out patting themselves on the back feeling really great about themselves, right? 

You know, they all came out until that weekend when the really icky messaging that rubbed everyone the wrong way, because at first, before that messaging came out, that's when those posts came out. And then when everyone saw the messaging and the social media backlash and all of that was coming out. That's when the comments turned off. That's when people were taking their last names out of their LinkedIn and their profile pictures. 

Then it was, oh, I had nothing to do with that Then it was former employees out and saying, oh, senior leadership at American Eagle has nothing to do with creative. Oh, that's trying to push blame to like the agency. It's completely disingenuous for everyone in that room to say that they had no idea what was going to happen after that. And you can sense I'm getting a little bit passionate about this because all of those people there are educated and experienced enough to know that it would have an effect and aligning yourself with the people who are saying that don't back down liberal tears it's so it's turned into a political issue and it's so much outside of just a marketing campaign that like, it's, it's so icky to me. 

And I can just, I can just say that I for one am extremely happy that I am not on that team. On that statement alone, on that statement alone, there's at least last time I checked. I'm not watching anymore, because it's like physically hurting me to see that for that team. There were 20,000 comments on that. There's no effective way to sift through and effectively manage if you're getting negative or positive sentiment without a tool that can do that.

You know what I mean? Like in those people, that's their job to see how it's landing and seeing how the consumer is taking that in. The VP isn't in there reading comments on Instagram and TikTok. If they are, wow. But like, that's not, that's not what they're dealing with. When I was social media manager, like brand reputation is part of your job. So, you know, they're the ones dealing with that.

That's the, it's affecting them deeply. So, um, I, like I said, when I was there, they were never this risk averse. And I think we're also, you know, the timing of this is a back-to-school campaign. They're competing with maybe crampy. What are the things you know, like Levi's? Yes. Yeah, you know, going after daughters and kids, you know, who's seeing that and saying, I want that to be my representation of myself going into school next year. And like, come on. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp                   24:49
You know, there's a couple of interesting things that you said, and we can't read hearts and minds, and we weren't in the room. So, you know, we can't say for absolute what people thought or what they know, what they didn't know. I do want to ask you all your opinion, like how much of this also goes back to the agencies as well?

Because like I said at the outset, I'm sure there's a very large team involved. But, you know, I would imagine, Melinda, you rely on your agency for a lot of guidance and counsel. Kim, same when you're working with agencies. So how much of this blame does go on to the agency?

Melinda Johnson                        25:33
That's an interesting statement, Aja, the agency, because typically the agencies and brand teams are partners. It's a partnership. And yes, we do rely on our agencies. And most any agency worth their salt is going to have creative teams and strategy teams that bring you the real and push you as a client. Like those are my best agency partners are the ones that tell me, you know, you need to think about this differently or your one-sided opinion doesn't work for everybody. I mean, I've had an agency partner literally tell our head of marketing who didn't want to feature a plus size woman in one of my campaigns before say like, you're wrong.

Like, your, your, your take on body positivity is wrong. And the, you know, the gates of hell will freeze over before I support this. And we didn't, you know, and of course we were all like, mm-hmm, that's right. We didn't do it. But so, I hesitate to say we're blame lies because ultimately, I feel like the brand owns the brand. Like they should be thinking about long-term equity impact of the business versus a short-term gain and a quick hit with a big celebrity.

And Haley, your take was so interesting as an insider because you described them as risk averse, and this was like the riskiest thing ever. And then to not, yes, Jen, as you pointed out, like not have a response. But like I wonder too, because I've also worked in cultures and I won't name any names in my previous life.

I've also worked in cultures where as a client, you were very hard on agencies and over-read them really quickly. So, depending on that relationship, I don't know, Haley, the relationship the brand has with the agency, the agency might've spoken up and whoever was in charge might've been like, no, we're doing it because I said so. And I always am hesitant where I see leadership teams in corporate America that aren't diverse, making statements about consumers they don't know anything about or don't take the time to deeply get ingrained.

But yeah, I had to pick a side, Aja. I'd have to go with like the buck stops with the brand team. You guys own the business and I'm hesitant and I'm I'd be hesitant to say it's the agency's fault because they're probably there I suspect there was somebody on the agency who said somebody had to like there's a problem somebody is agent a strategy person an account person somebody 

Haley Knott                   28:01
Or at least other concepts as well like so look at your so 

Jennifer Bickerton      28:05
Yeah you start with more concepts this is the one okay you sure you want to weigh it before you get out there let's weigh what we're putting out there and as an agency you're right like having managed agencies and having been in-house having been an agency for so long and I worked in advertising before this and then manage then people are managing us now the buck's not brand like when we were the side Aja when we were the brand side we took the something went down right I mean that's just 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      28:37
Yep 

Sammuel Monnie        28:38
But to Haley . . .

Kim Aimi                         28:39
I agree, I think it's just very easy for everyone involved to kind of, you act in a silo, right? And then you start patting each other on the back and then you stop seeing things clearly because maybe they saw like, oh, Sydney Sweeney, we can get her. Oh my God, we should use her. And then like you stop thinking and you stop being like objective. So I mean, maybe somebody at the brand was like oh let's do jeans and jeans you know and maybe that agency had no part in arguing back it's really hard to say without being in the room but I, I do feel like they just went in with blinders and didn't take a beat to think about what's happening in this crazy world of ours and how might others react which clearly since they had no comeback I don't think they thought 

Sammuel Monnie        29:30
Yeah some of the research I was doing I suspect um I think there was an agency that's been working with them for a while again maybe I don't want to put Hayley in the spot um I think Shadow and they were taking credit for this line came up and they had to run it through uh you know go with it so there was a sense of an idea that was landed on that so I can see how they got from an idea that they liked through to execution but the question I ask and I think as a been on the brand side and also been on the sort of consulting and agency side is can do you have folks in the room who imbedded in the process with decision making power that can speak truth to power with power so can you speak to the power with power and challenge dissent, dissuade, debate with veracity and fervor, and be listened to with empathy? 

Can you challenge the status quo? Can you challenge a decision and give guidance? When something is off, can you tell someone, and they will believe you and listen to you? And is that the culture inside? And we know we've just seen in the world that we live in right now, the president fired the Bureau of Labor Statistics because they shared the latest numbers and didn't like the numbers to fire the person. So, there's role modeling in corporate America right now that if you speak truth to power, you will get fired for the truth and the evidence you bring. So, I have empathy for the people in the process.

But if the process and the decision making in the culture is not right, then you're going to lead to this mess where from the beginning people were fervently taking credit for having the idea. We bounced off Sydney and she loved it. She said, let's go all the way in. And now no one's got anything to say. So, it's and then it's your point.

People are changing, turning off the comments, turning off their profile, deleting their names from their profile. So that's not, you're not acting from a place of power. You're, that's a fear-based response. And so, hearing what's going on, it's like, oh, darn it. I'm like, I have empathy for the people because there are teams and people not being led well. There's dysfunction in the C-suite. There's now finger pointing and blame. And who is the adult in the room to solve the problem and I'm 190 certain there are people in the organization who said watch out we shouldn't do this this doesn't resonate so people who had a voice I I'm going to have to there are people there who said don't do this or hear suggestions who weren't listened to. 

So now that creates even more dysfunction because they have to clean up the mess they didn't make. And now they're accountable for not fixing a problem they didn't create that they weren't listened to about. And so 20... 

Jennifer Bickerton      31:56
And they'll probably be the scapegoats. 

Sammuel Monnie       31:58
And they'll be the scapegoats. Why didn't you respond to the 20,000 comments that we're not ready and we don't have the tools and the covers.

I have empathy for the people in the system because from what I'm hearing and sensing research and the crisis management that came in, they don't have the competency and so for me whenever anything happens I always look at the leadership team and I look at the board and the leadership team are a very white-led organization and I was worried about that. 

The board has a couple of you know female people of color on the board and it's a little bit more and there's a couple of people that from my career have got great reputation so but they haven't said anything either you know one of them is always on LinkedIn all the time commenting he's a board member pally-pally with the CMO she's not said a word since so and he's an ad industry lead ad agency leader so I fear that it is a mess right now and do they have do they have the ability do they have the capacity do they have the leadership and the board to turn this around and are they supporting their people are they supporting their teams and their customers and their store staff to ultimately fix this because if they're not it's going to get worse a lot faster then it's going to get better 

Melinda Johnson         33:06
Yeah Sam you spoke facts and I think what else is interesting is the response was they doubled down on what they did and so you just talked to those c-suite leaders and board members but the response that they finally did give says a lot and maybe they're still crisis managing um but to your point there's always pressure put on the smaller people in the room and the little guys, but I have to put, we have to have, you have to have leaders that listen to all the voices in the room. 

They have, they take the time to have empathy, to listen, to understand the consumer, to understand what their team is saying and make a measured decision. And then when you make the decision, you have to stand on it. And the best leaders I've seen at companies are ones who are willing to do that. And then to say, if it didn't go according to what they decided on to own it and either say it was a miss, this is what we thought we were doing, but it didn't work out. 

People can get, people can understand that. But what you can't understand is just like jumping off the cliff with something, people can understand that, but what you can't understand is just like jumping off the cliff with something, turning off your profile, ducking. 

Jennifer Bickerton       34:14
Yeah. Because it's so transparent what you're doing, right. Versus just being transparent from the get, you know, we didn't mean to offend. That was not our intention. I didn't mean it, 

Melinda Johnson       34:22
. . . but everybody makes bad decisions.

Jonathan Pease            34:26
I've got a slightly contrarian point based on what I'm hearing, and it could be coming from my distance. So, I'll ask you all to forgive me, but I think it's worth saying, you know, we're talking about they're in crisis and there's a big problem and how are they managing that crisis now I'm not in those rooms. 

But there's also another school of thought which is they're sitting they're sitting there thinking free media stock prices popped suddenly we've got mass awareness you know we just heard from Haley that, you know, they were risk adverse, stock was down, didn't really know what to do.

Sydney Sweeney's turned up and she said, actually, let's go all the way. I think that was really well put, Sammuel. You know, let's go all the way. Who's going to say no to that? I bet you there weren't many people willing to say no to that. And it's just the trains run away, but maybe they're sitting there going, “actually, we got a lot of positives out of this. Let's just stay quiet. Let's ride this for a while and see where it takes us.” I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. But in those rooms, maybe they're rubbing their heads together. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      35:43
And to add to that, today the stock is now up almost 20% from the last time I checked because the President has now officially weighed in.

Jennifer Bickerton      35:53
She supports him.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      35:54
And said that it's the hottest ad out there.

Jennifer Bickerton     35:55
That's because she supports him; you're safe.

Sammuel Monnie        35:58
Yeah, but the question I ask is, if Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, Ted Cruz, and Robbie Starbuck are the ones championing your brand, is that going to be the customer you're going to grow with and sell with? And now the President of the U.S. Is that your future customer that's going to drive you to success and back to school success?

I think I know the answer to that question.

Melinda Johnson         36:18
I know the answer.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      36:19
Yeah.

Melinda Johnson         36:20
But if I could do something short term, yeah.

Jennifer Bickerton      36:24
So, yeah.

Sammuel Moonie        36:25
So that's, if it's about the business, I don't think those are the folks you actually want endorsing and defending your brand. You want a different group of people, I would believe, to be the brand spokespeople and custodians. 

And so to your point, JP, the train, yeah, it seems like the trains left the station and they don't know what to do which is the worst situation to be in because you're supposed to be in charge so I have again I'm I have empathy but what are they going to do next quarter the quarter after that and I have they really um do they understand their audience do they understand their customer that you know 19 of us consumers say they stopped buying from brands that backtracked on DEI. 

So, consumers, customers, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, shopping with their values more than other groups. So now it's becoming politicized. And your latest dilemma is apparently Sydney Sweeney's a registered Republican in Florida. She's still not said anything. President come out and said, “I support the campaign now because of because of that fact,” now you're in a political issue and it's Monday of the following week what and you still not said something so the stakes are getting higher and the silence is getting louder and so uh your and your brand is about to be attached to one side or the other how do you navigate it in the cultural context we live in right now?

There is a way, there's always a way, but are you going to make those steps to navigate to win and bring more people into your franchise? Or are you going to be stuck fighting one side against the other, which is only going to be depleted because you're not going to get to 100% of the market. Now you're trying to win 45% of the market or whatever that is. You need to get to 9,500% of the audience and win with them. And you're making it harder to sell more of your product.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      38:10
What would you tell them to do now? And this is open to anyone, but Sam, since you're on a roll, you can start.

Sammuel Monnie        38:17
Well, I started off talking about respecting your audience and really acting with care and care, consideration and creativity. But also, it's about progress over perfection. So right now, you've made a mistake. Some people's eyes. How do you move forward without being perfect? How do you shift your mindset to rebuild the trust that has been undermined? And how do you take action versus inaction, right?

So those are things you can do. You can drive impact through your product, but it can't be per formative. So, a brand like Lush, I wrote about it in an article for Walk, they renamed their bath bombs diversity, equity, and inclusion because it's part and core of their product. They can really bring that to life in store their audiences and customers um have empathy and support that and it was a product that people could buy into so it fit their brand follow it through with authenticity and conviction and so are they do they really have conviction to what they did? 

Okay, what are you going to build that conviction on? So, you have to really be respectful of your conscious audience and really be responsible to them, progress over perfection, and really think and act with care and brand relevance. So those are two or three things I would say to them that they should do. And if the leaders need help, I mean, they've hired, I think there's all these people on this call right now would be able to do that. And I'm sure there's employees-

Aja Bradley-Kemp      39:55
Except for Haley, she says no. Haley says, “don't call me.”

Sammuel Monnie        39:57
There's employees and staff right now who actually know better than, and if you listen to them. So, you know, I've given a few tips, and I'll hand the mic over to someone else to chime in with their perspective.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      40:10
JP, what would you tell them to do?

Jonathan Pease            40:13
Yeah, well, I mean, they've picked a lane, right? They've I know they're saying that they've made a mistake, but I just come back to the fact that it is intentional, right? Like they had to have known genes to jeans, how that was going to connect in the current climate. So yes, maybe what's happened has gone further than they thought and now they're struggling to know what to do.

But in my mind, it was intentional at least to make that connection and start something, spark something, because they needed to do something. What they now need to do is, I don't know, they either need to come out and completely admit they're wrong and change direction, or they need to stay at it.

They need to find the next Sydney Sweeney and do something else that's outrageous, right, consistency. I mean, if you think about, you guys will know the brand Liquid Death, basically a water brand. Everything they do is completely outrageous. Everything there is completely controversial. Something like this would be a nothing compared to what they do. 

But they do it consistently. It's what they're known for. And the people that buy into the brand, they understand it and they like it. So, it's sort of, they've picked a lane and they've stuck to it. I think the biggest issue here is they were risk adverse. They weren't really doing anything. Now they pick something that is very risky, and it's definitely polarized the audience.  Now they need to either change tack or be consistent. That's what I would say from a creative point of view. 

Jennifer Bickerton      41:43
You make such a good point, by the way, because somebody that names a water brand “Liquid Death,” you would not expect anything to be traditional out of the gate, right? You're not even making headlines because you're like, okay, that's who you are. That's what you want to be, right? And here you have this all-American brand that is, and with everything going on in our country right now, let alone the world, and then you see them do something like this. I do think you're right. I think there was something very intentional because there wasn't a person of color. 

There wasn't a person that was overweight in that act. It was one single human being, and they knew what they were doing.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      42:17
My question, and I think I know the answer to this, but the thought that I had is, you know, is disruption a long-term strategy for them if it isn't baked into their brand DNA? And is this a crossroads for them? I guess as you were saying, JP, that they're going to completely now change their culture and what they stand for? Or are they going to try to circle back and come a little bit toward the middle to where they used to be.

Jonathan Pease            42:46
Yeah, look, I mean, I'm talking above my pay grade. I'm not even American. I did live there for 10 years. So, I have some understanding. But when I look at the political landscape over there, disruption got someone into office. So, there is a group of people in that country that buys into and aligns with that type of messaging and ideology.

Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I think they did the math, and they picked a side and they went for it. It'll be, to me, the most interesting thing here is what are they gonna do next creatively? Right, because that will tell us everything if they were to do something else in a similar line then we'll know and if they I don't know go quiet or change tack I think that's the worst thing they could do actually go quiet and change tack because it just shows completed inconsistency they've broken a lot of trust and I think that'll have a mid-term and long-term massively negative impact. 

Kim Aimi                          43:47
I think that's really interesting like was it a way for them to pick sides and an audience without them seeming like that's what they were doing? 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      43:57
What I find interesting along those lines Kim is that she, Sydney, was at a screening last night for her new film called, I think it's called Americana. It's either American or Americana.

Jonathan Pease            44:10
You could have scripted it.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      44:12
Yeah, if you, and Jen, and you all know, when you're working with talent and you're planning a rollout, you know everything that that talent is about to do involved with and so you know that caused you to think well that's where American blue jeans Blue Americana supporting them there's a message 

Jonathan Pease       44:40
It's all there yeah 

Aja Bradley-Kemp    44:42
JP uh before you go you think that this, what's happened here with this brand, how are creative directors going to move moving forward? 

You know, is it, do you guys, you know, still have your same mindset or is it going to, do you think it's going to scare creatives a little bit or are they going to be a bit more cautious? What do you think from the marketer, the agency side of things? How do you think creative directors move moving forward in the future?

Jonathan Pease            45:20
I would like to think that agencies and creative directors are going to be more intentional, more thoughtful and more responsible when it comes to things like this. I think, in reality, nothing's going to change. That dynamic between agency and client is a very interesting one. Creatives come up with ideas in partnership with the client, but at the end of the day, it is the client that says, yes, no, maybe. So, you know, what is the objective of the agency?

Maybe it was eyeballs, maybe it was earned media, maybe it was just general awareness. Well, they've certainly ticked that box. And then I guess the client has to deal with more of the fallout in the sort of mid-term. So, look, I don't think much will change. I don't think agencies and creators will shift based on this one campaign. I really don't. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      46:20
American Eagle hosted at their office an HBCU Professor Summit, where they actively talked about all the work that they do in recruiting HBCU students. And they also, just two weeks before this campaign dropped, they announced the recipients of a social justice scholarship that they’ve been giving out, I think since 2021. And it's given to associates that are actively driving anti-racism, equality and social justice initiatives. On top of that, this campaign was supposed to also help a domestic violence charity.

So, from a PR perspective, Jen, I really wanted to find out from you, it's like, how does one reconcile all of those things? 

Jennifer Bickerton      47:08
I wish I had the answer to that. I mean, they should, and I don't know, maybe they did, and I didn't see it, but I would have had Sydney Sweeney all over that talk show circuit, pushing out the right messaging about this campaign. Cause it's such a disconnect. I mean, it just feels like you're going, I feel like they're going to have to backtrack a lot and answer a lot of questions.

You know, and again, this comes down to just raw messaging, coming out of the gate with your brand book, knowing what all of your messaging is. Your spokesperson for your business, for your, sorry, for the company, and then for your employees, your internal stuff, right? Your store, your everything inside. I don't think that that's what's going on at all. And honestly, Haley, you probably know best, but to me, it just seems like everybody's in a different silo.

Melinda Johnson         47:56
Aja, I feel like when you said those initiatives, I had to control my response because I was shocked. And a little off, like, why, how dare you like, right? Have what seems to be performative initiatives. Like, do you think those consumer groups are stupid?

Like, yeah, I I'm with you, Jen.

Jennifer Bickerton      48:17
It's like a complete disconnect. Like, do you know your, like, what is your, like, you all know your equity

Melinda Johnson
And do you like use it as a lighthouse and stand by it? Like, I don't like, and now I'm like what is your like you all know your equity and do you like, use the lighthouse and stand by it like I don't like and now I'm like “what is it?” right

Sammuel Moonie        48:31
Wait that more information is making when more information makes it worse you know you've created a problem because it's like wait a minute right I'm like oh yeah so now you're right about because there's this perspective or perception or risk of per formative DEI because it's not true to their purpose because they'll throw anything out in the moment to appease whoever in the moment is it truly do they really believe it is or is it authentic do they stand behind it or are they just ticking boxes now there's 17 questions coming to mind based on that in new information 

Melinda Johnson         48:59
Yes 

Sammuel Monnie        49:00
Meanwhile they are staying silent because you're saying because now because, because we've got the internet. So, explain, like Aja just did, explain this. And what about this? And what about that? So now we're paying attention and you're silent. When I was in the UK, one of my favorite exam questions ever was “one cannot not communicate.”

Right. And I love that. It was in my communication studies exam questions because your silence is deafening. So it's to the point that Hayley raised, and I'd love to hear more from you um as well if there's this dysfunction going on why did they do the DEI  I think maybe they're going to oh let's put out a press release about the stuff we did for HBCUs you know so there's probably going to be just swirl and churn going on because is it core these things have to be core to your brands when I talk about purpose-driven DEI it's the idea that it's actually having um a positive impact on every single person internally and externally from the organization.

It's not corporate social responsibility over there, DEI over here, brand over there. There's an integration where it’s core to your audience, it's core to your stakeholders, it's core to your employees, it's core to your customers. And this is all woven together so there is a cohesive story so when things like that happen those communities would come out and say wait actually here's some great stuff they're doing but for us to go and find it and then say explain this and they're still silent it's just a dysfunctional um you know situation so I feel that the brand has an opportunity to move forward and I think JP was saying they need to course correct. 

What course are they going to take and how are they going to rebuild trust? Rebuild trust with their employees first, then you build trust with your customers and shoppers and then your shareholders come in that order. So, start with internally. How are you going to rebuild that trust and credibility and authenticity now and move forward that's I would look in before you go out because if you're going out and you haven't got your act together now you've said something you start you know you people don't have and their people are going to stores what if it's a protest outside a store or and how do you how do you help your people now and have that anchor, have those pillars built up before you start going externally?

So, I'll give them credit if they're doing stuff internally. But if they're pointing fingers, maintaining silos and not clear on what to do, that is only going to be hurting their people. And it's going to be hurting their sales and their profits. 

Melinda Johnson         51:23
And I love that, Sam, because it's interesting, you focused on the organization first, because most every company says people first, but usually that's the last thing in a lot of leadership conversations, unless there's an issue or a problem or a lawsuit. So, but you're, you're very right. Especially given they're a retail brand that like that is public facing.

Like there's a lot to do internally before you even tackle the external. But I think that was an interesting point that you you've talked about a few times. I'm like, I wish more companies thought about that.

Kim Aimi            51:59   
They could be like most other companies, just very ignorant, too. I mean, it could be like JP had said are they just sitting back thinking this is great 

Melinda Johnson  52:10         
Well, I mean didn't the CMO come out saying like this was the best thing for the brand getting Sydney Sweeney like it just feels very 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      52:16
That was early that was early, yeah.

Melinda Johnson         52:20 
It feels very worthy like we got a big yeah, you know, 

Jennifer Bickerton       52:22
like y'all know everybody on this call probably worked with celebrities when the big guy on the company gets, you know, the picture with the celebrity and the ego goes up. It's like, OK, well, I'm buddies with, you know, X, Y and Z now. I mean, we saw it all the time and 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      52:41
Jen!

Jennifer Bickerton      52:42
All right.

Melinda Johnson         52:42
That's right. At all.

Aja Bradley Kemp       52:44
We gonna cut that part out (laughing)

Sammuel Moonie        52:51
Keep it real Jen, keep it real Jen

Melinda Johnson         52:52
Meanwhile the celebrity doesn’t even notice. (laughing)

Jennifer Bickerton      52:57
When you're that high up in a corporation that you're a little bit clouded sometimes by your own judgment, right? When you're working big you don't think wow this could backfire you're like this is who everyone's loving right now this is what's hot we're gonna make this we're gonna go and then backfires and it is like a giant shock to the system 

Melinda Johnson         53:19
Yeah, and I and Jen I could easily see that being the narrative versus the other coin which is they were so intentional and so strategic and so smart.  I question that. I don't know if they were that smart because now, we're seeing them. Now we're seeing what's happening.

Haley Knott                   53:32
In my experience when I was there, they were very focused on like getting the headline, getting the award, you know, getting that kind of thing to where I think it was very much that as well that as well.

Jennifer Bickerton      53:47
I could talk to you guys for another two hours I feel like I've learned so much and just from

The way you're all you all think great 

Melinda Johnson         53:57

I love your neon sign, and I was like get her W and R upside I love it.

Jennifer Bickerton     54:04
I know, I got it.

Sammuel Moonie        54:07
Curious, Hayley, if you're comfortable, could you just talk more about the culture and the experience? Because not maybe, I don't want to put you on the spot, but I feel that we've talked a lot from the outside. But you've been there, done it. So, in terms of.

Kim Aimi                            54:20
But I am so curious too. 

Sammuel Moonie        54:24
But if that's comfortable, because I say I've been talking about people, but you've probably got friends or colleagues or peers or, you know, there. So, I'm just curious if you could talk more from your lived experience of how it is and how you'd feel and how maybe they might navigate this if you're comfortable.

Hayley Knott                 54:40
I'm always happy to talk about that. Luckily, everyone that I worked with on my immediate team who made it all worth it for me those two years that I was there, they're all out, basically. Everyone works in a silo there, especially in that marketing department. All of those initiatives you just talked about, I'll be honest I had no idea that those even existed there may have been an internal email, and you didn't know they existed 

There may have been an internal email that went out I got a lot of emails unfortunately I we also had like a corporate like internal social I was all the brand facing like American Eagle stuff. So, a lot of those initiatives, unless that was like an extremely different or campaign, like forward something, we wouldn't really hear about it or be involved in it. So that being said, like, it kind of doesn't surprise me that those things are happening.

And that they didn't hear about it. The domestic violence aspect of this campaign also is so disjointed and disconnected, because if you go to their website, they're not even available yet. Like you can't even buy them also, they're $90. So, like, what is your market and demographic? Who's buying those jeans for $90? I know a portion of it goes to, you know, crisis text line, but you can't even purchase them right now.  So I don't know why they would talk about like that being an aspect of the campaign. I know they haven't really mentioned it a little bit, but that's, 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      56:24
That's, and that's my thing. If that wasn't mentioned at all, except for maybe once in the beginning, like that's, it's a weird, totally missed. So, you know, I, that's another element of the disconnect with everything, because if you're doing something, yeah. If you're doing something so if you're doing something so um charitable you would think that your talent and the talent's message would also align with that charitable giving to make it all you know cohesive and a 360 uh campaign so that I 

Hayley Knott                 57:06
That seems like a message agree yeah that seems like a message that they would more lean into than what they did ended up going with for sure 

Sammuel Moonie        57:13
It just sounds like it was it was bolted on not built into the core of the of the campaign because if it's not available yet they probably haven't made it yet so and it's not you know the codes don't exist and it's not up on the website so it just feels unfortunately it wasn't . . . 

Aja Bradley-Kemp        57:28
. . . performative 

Sammuel Moonie         57:29
. . . and when you talk to silos then it would explain why there is the there's lack of understanding or awareness of the whole the whole picture so the brand is not cohesive the brand expression cannot be cohesive and there's some fundamental brand and business stuff that needs to happen in order for them to move forward.

So, the crisis consultancy has been there for two days. They're going to be pretty busy because they're going to be asking fundamental questions. And they're not going to be able to get quick or simple answers because folks won't actually have the answer. So, there's a huge brand lift that needs to happen, it sounds like. And so, they've got a long journey.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      58:05
How do they turn this around? You know, what can they do? Because chosen a side in a way, or they've chosen a narrative, so to speak. So, it's not like tomorrow they can go out to the HBCUs. It's going to be homecoming season. They can't go to Howard Homecoming and show up and, you know, do some cool event.

I mean, what do they do next? Do they get Drake to show up and put on his jeans and drop a song called American Eagle? You know, because Drake represents all kinds of folks. Like, what do they do now?

Kim Aimi                            58:42
That's such a good question, because I was my first thought was like I mean everybody's got different genes like you could still play a multicultural campaign and you know talk about choice versus traits right but then it's like they're just gonna keep digging the hole I think if they go down that route so I almost feel like they're just going to keep digging the hole, I think, if they go down that route. So, I almost feel like they need to pivot completely.

Melinda Johnson         59:12
Yeah, it's an interesting question, Aja, because I'm still not really clear on what they want to do, who they're targeting. This response they gave on Friday almost seems like they doubled down and said, “yeah, we said it. What?” Which, hey, we said it. What? Which, hey, that's at least a stake in the ground. But then that it's almost seems like they listened to all of the commentary and comments and then chose a political side that was like, I guess, their opinion on winning one for the short term, I believe, because I think long term.

I agree with Sammuel. I'm not sure their actual consumer, Sidney Sweeney and the way this ad was represented was appealing to that consumer to make them go buy jeans. So, the stock price might be up. Stocks, as we know, go up and down depending on what announcement was made, what tariff dropped, who got fired, whatever. That's up and down.

But long-term brand equity and sustainability of driving the business top line and sustained growth. Like ultimately when you're, I'm an owner of a brand, I want positive brand sentiment and equity for my brand with my core consumer group. That's a must. So, I like, so I just have big questions. Who were they even talking to?

The whole campaign felt like they were talking to men trying to sell. I don't, I just don’t big questions who were they even talking to the whole campaign felt like they were talking to men trying to sell I don't I just don't it's so wild like I just feel like there's such disconnects all over the place it's hard to say what the next move is because I don't even know what their intention is or was or trying to be and this latest response almost feels like, “Yeah we're gonna go on the irresponsible side of saying we said we did what we did.” 

And that so it'll be interesting to me, it'll be interesting to see what how they back up this kind of response. Sammuel, you said you did some research that they've hired a PR agency now to help it'll be interesting where trajectory they go because if they truly just want to be jeans for a monolith of people that I mean that's a direction I don't know that that's I don't know that that's going to grow the brand long term yeah you know 

Sammuel Moonie        1:01:19
You mentioned  my name there and I'm thinking they do have options right they got to recast we just reground go back to the beginning you know the campaign is out there so how do they move forward with clarity and care not just don't be reactive you've got to be careful and be and clarify. Interestingly again um you know for folks who've worked there there's the airy brand right and that brand is a very different positioning it's a lot smaller can that be helpful to them in this situation because there's values baked into that brand that perhaps are more gonna appeal to more people so they've got those doors they've got that brand is there something that they can do can they recast you know the creativity. 

I don't want to be cliched however if they had for me if there was an answer moving forward if they had more of the dove the brand of the dove um DNA where the real beauty campaign is representing different types of women different types of people so if they had gone and said if they'd said oops we sent out this there's five other executions with different models different standards different beauty but they obviously don't have that ready so they don't have a plan A, B, C, D, and E because that doesn't exist. So, there could be a pathway to be more representative of the audience they want to win with and reframe, you know, to focus on the community that they are ultimately trying to serve. 

You know, brands like Lush, I think Elf Beauty are brands that they can learn from who do represent their audiences, their communities. They do actually show up. They do take a stance. And they grow. I think Elf Beauty has grown for 24 consecutive quarters in terms of sales and revenue. So, there is a pathway to turn the business around. But they've got to really be grounded in the first place.

It starts with the leadership. It starts with the board. But I'm going to repeat myself. I've got a friend, Lola Bakare, who's written a book called Responsible Marketing. Perhaps buy that book and look at the core tenets. Because she talks about an apology versus fauxpology and how to be wrong the right way. I love that. How to be wrong the right way. And they're kind of being wrong the wrong way. So, you can now be wrong the right way. 

So, there are ways that you can get out of this situation. So shoutout to her um and move yourself forward I'm an optimist I'm not I'm a realist.

Melinda Johnson         1:03:33
Look, right beside me (holds up the book)

Sammuel Moonie        1:03:34
Okay so shout out to Lola. So, there are ways there's experts on here there's people out there who can who can lead you to the path to success and glory um have the grace have the confidence have the humility to listen and pivot. Don't  be reactive you need to respond with care consideration for your audiences it's possible and there's help available to do that this leadership can do it and the board I can support them doing that and ultimately support your people first put the board can support them doing that. 

And ultimately, support your people first. Support them first, people first, people first, but actually do it because if you start doing that, their stories will be the ones that suddenly start to tell a better story. Because once they start saying good things about the brand and the company, that can only then go to customers and consumers, which can then go to shareholders and stock price after that.

Kim Aimi                              1:04:24
So you don't think it's too late because you're really giving them a lot of um credit right like that that they want to turn this ship or that they are smart enough to listen or that they care about their people enough to make these changes and there's enough money behind their words to like actually steer the ship differently 

Sammuel Moonie        1:04:45
I'm because it's their business they're they are living in the business world so if they don't turn this around activist shareholders will come in and demand they're like fire people fire the board and so this is about money. So I'm it's a company I believe in purpose and profit right it's not either or it's both so you can have a positive impact on humanity and nature while being profitable at the same time so there is a path to profit and path to growth that is going to make you more money. 

I'm just saying look your audience and your consumer that's going to grow is not going to is not really this is not going to resonate with them so if you're a raging capitalist you would say how do I win with more people and grow the market the most and sell to the most people that has to be more inclusive that has to be more people so if I want to make more money there's a way to get there if I want to be right or stick with where they are or the status quo then that's not going to make you the most money so this is a money conversation if we know the data of the stats of the audience Gen Alpha,  Gen Z's in terms of they shot with their values and they shot they so they are your customer who doesn't buy into this give them something that they will. 

Kim Aimi                            1:05:47
That's kind of my point they did they did respond with status quo 

Melinda Johnson         1:05:51
Like on to me on the wrong side of responsibility so I it's a very provocative point that it's kind of like I think everything that has been said is dead on it's like all of. Yes, there is a path to turn it around if that desire is in your heart. But in a lot of places, you know, sometimes people operate on emotion and on ego and on whatever place they're coming from.

Kim Aimi                            1:06:19
Short term.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:06:20
And operate on a short-term mindset, not a long-term strategy.

Melinda Johnson         1:06:27
And it might take different talent to be able to make that shift and that pivot. Because to me, if you really understand your consumer is marketing 101. So, the fact that it got to this point and you invested in a spokesperson, and you paid all this money for a campaign, and now you're going, oops, we didn't understand the consumer. Like that doesn't even make sense.

Sammuel Moonie        1:06:49
Brands and companies do this all the time. So, they won't be the first and they won't be the last. And, you know, the work I do is there is a way back or there's a way to become worse. And I think they're a commercial entity, and they're there to make money. 

And if they're not, if they're making more or less money, then to write the talent will change because the CFO cannot go to the market with two more quarters of bad performance, and the C-suite be in place. That's just not going to happen out of realism.  So they need to come do it from a place of strength versus a place of weakness. But we shall see how this plays out 

Melinda Johnson         1:07:26
We shall see. Yes, I think the provocative point is can this group do it in a quick time span or not or do more significant changes need to take place to get it back on track 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:07:35
Can you guys think of a brand that has done well financially has gotten rich off of being divisive versus being inclusive. Because you mentioned earlier, Sam, the Dove campaign, I think about brands like Patagonia, you see how Nike sees surges at different points in times when they're focusing on a more inclusive representation. Is there a case study or on a brand that they could cause all this disruption and divisiveness and still win?

Melinda Johnson         1:08:14
So, I think when you say divisive, though, Aja comes from a bad place. All those brands you just named to me were disruptors, but they were in a positive and responsible way that made sense.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:08:24
Exactly! That's my point. That's my point. The ones that I think of that are disruptive are the ones that have created these campaigns that make you feel good, that make a lot of people feel good. And I'm just wondering, when we're talking about capitalism, is there a case study of a brand that has been able to do well by being very polarizing? 

Kim Aimi                            1:08:51
So, Chick-fil-A, right? Like, I feel like they are somewhat divisive. I love Chick-fil-A, but I have very good friends who will not go there because of their beliefs, because they're closed, you know, they're closed on Sundays, but they have very strong beliefs. And they operate in those, and they do not apologize and they still make money So you could say it's political. You could like, it's, it's a lot of things.

It's definitely maybe a good example of a company who is you know that said like they know their audience they are intentionally being who they are it's not like a mistake that was just like oh we didn't realize this was happening or you know I just think there is intention behind what they do. They live out their values and it doesn't align with everybody. And they've certainly lost customers, but I am pretty sure they're still doing well. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:09:54
That's a great point. And we don't have all the answers here that, you know, this conversation was to explore what all the, what the possibilities and answers could be. 

Melinda Johnson         1:10:04
So, you know, going to say Aja when I can think of that some you know Unilever family like dove has been in Jerry's so they've they're like built into their DNA and heritage has always been um a level of inclusivity and supporting their all of their diverse consumer groups they've been staunch supporters of the LGBTQ plus community.

They also were one of the few brands that like, took an extremely vocal stance during the George Floyd murders and actually announcing white supremacy and actually coming out and saying it. So, they're ones that like back up what they believe in, but it's also built into their DNA. Like it's been that way for decades. It's part of the founder core DNA.

So, I think to me, that's where again, and then if you took play examples, a great one, cause you're right. It's very, they're very, they can be very polarizing, very polarizing. But I think if it's, if it's core to your equity and DNA and what you stand for, if that guides you, then if you do something, you own it.

And the people that love your brand and the core of your brand will continue to be there. And ideally, you're growing that over time. I think you said it very short-sighted in looking for quick wins, that's when you can kind of get into dangerous territory, especially if you're not being led by your guiding compass, which is to me, you're always- 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:11:34
And I feel like that's the answer, really, is they need to decide. They need to decide what is their DNA, you know, who is it that they want to serve and, and, 

Melinda Johnson         1:11:49
And I'm so confused. I don't know who, I don't know. I went to their Instagram page and said, this looks pleasant and very … confusing

Aja Bradley-Kemp          1:11:51
I am just confused

Sammuel Moonie        1:11:52
Yeah, I think you have to really be true to your, we gave a couple of brand examples, but you have to be really clear on your values and the DNA of your brand and the brand drivers and then build from there. I'm just thinking of, I'm not necessarily going to agree with the premise that you have to be divisive. I think you have to really be clear on your values and the meaning of values and bring that to life with conviction.

You know, I think of Costco as a company that's been 26 consecutive weeks of foot traffic growth since Target, Rollback, DEI. But why is Costco so strong? Because they say that their employees bring originality and creativity to their offerings. And so that's why they support diversity, because it brings them the best products. It brings the best employee base. They've got a 90% membership renewal rate, which is worth $5 billion.

So, people who shop there feel good and want to renew the membership. They have a 93% retention rate of employees, which means employees stay because they pay them quite well, treat them quite well, which means they treat customers well, which means they make more money. And so, they're the envy of the industry, but it's all about capital and money. So, they're doing this DEI stuff because they get the best products, they get the best staff, they get the most members, and they make the most money, and they grow.

So, I feel that there is a way you can do this, and it's additive. It's about values which bring people together not dividing it's you to get to more of the market you've got to bring more people in and it's not a um a sort of a um a viewpoint that is about charity it's actually about making the most money from a from a in the in the commercial system and bring but so you can bring purpose and you can bring profit and the examples are out there that do that successfully.

And if we can tell enough of those stories, maybe these brands will actually see that their growth comes from this future consumer that they're alienating right now in order to make the money they need to. They need to find a way to bring them in, bring more people in. And that is their part as to making more money and also having a positive impact.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:14:04
And a five-dollar chicken doesn't hurt 

Melinda Johnson         1:14:08
Yes, it's a beautiful loss leader 

Aja Bradley-Kemp        1:14:11
Yes 

Melinda Johnson          1:14:12
Costco is a great example I think of like yeah Brandon did it right for sure and that created that brand love and got on the right side of things I mean I'm in the New York area and like reverend al Sharpton was bus loading truckloads of black churches to the Costco near me near me in Union New Jersey like you couldn't even the regular people who shot there couldn't even get into the parking lot it was like mobbed 

Sammuel Moonie        1:14:38
So, you just said it so what if you create a movement that your stance to roll back that I think we're talking about target the stance to roll back DEI cost them and they there's their last quarter they were down 2.4 percent 

Melinda Johnson         1:14:49
I don't shop at target anymore 

Sammuel Moonie        1:14:50
And well to your point that they they're on record saying it you know their sales decline is attributable to this boycott so it's affecting business so if you don't bring more people in you're going to ultimately not make more money so this is a business decision as much as it is a doing what's as much as it is doing what's right, but it's also doing what's right for your top and bottom line, as well as what's right for society and people.

And that's the beauty. If you look at Tesla as a brand, they are in decline. Their sales are down. They're struggling globally because of their stance of their CEO. So, we've seen bad examples of decline from Target, Tesla, examples of growth from Target, Tesla, examples of growth from health beauty and Costco. 

So, the jury's still out on American Eagle. My hypothesis is going to be more of a Tesla than it is a health beauty because they're just not going to get more people to buy more of their stuff. I think it's as simple as that. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:15:40
Unless they change.

Melinda Johnson         1:15:41
And I think the interesting thing too is some of those companies you named that were not you know not getting it right they still they haven't may have coupled like they had like they're still kind of running the play um even though it's not working and the question is like how long do you. You know the company like there's a lot of examples of brands that have made mistakes, and it was like the one that comes to mind because I'm in the beauty space is shea moisture. this might have been 10 years ago when they had an ad campaign that featured um white women very light-skinned black women very loose textured curls and like it completely walked away from their core like African-American woman with a more tightly textured hair and with I think it was like 12 hours later they were like it was a long Instagram post of like we are so sorry this was tone deaf we didn't get it oh my god like stop and now they're the biggest like they're in the multi-colon 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:16:40
Number two 

Melinda Johnson         1:16:41
They're so big they're like a to me like their general market in my opinion, at this point, they have now they took a dip initially because they made a mistake, but like they were, they recovered well, they realized we made a mistake. So, some of these companies just don't seem to like, and I'm telling you a lot of it is the people who are in leadership,

Sammuel Moonie        1:16:58
Right? 

Melinda Johnson         1:16:59
So, they are just not going to get off the pot. Like my mom used to say, 

Sammuel Moonie        1:17:05
So, the data and math will be your friend because the market will not go back to the people who sticks for the hypothesis based on data is the people who are staying the current course, the math ain't math in. I mean, I'm a Brit and so it sounds horrible when I say that.

Melinda Johnson         1:17:19
I love it.

Sammuel Moonie        1:17:21
So, at some point-

Melinda Johnson         1:17:22
I'm a New Jerseyer.

Sammuel Moonie        1:17:25
Or as an activist investor will say, wait a minute, I need my money back. You're going to have to get more people and grow. And that will happen sooner rather than later. So those companies we've mentioned, I fully believe, and certainly the retail one, their leadership, their things will change sooner than later because they cannot go to the market with three quarters of decline. That's just not a business model that's sustainable 

Kim Aimi                            1:17:46
I just think one of the things that we didn't talk about was the Duncan Donuts ad that came out after the AA ad which I don't know have you guys seen it or did you read about it

Melinda Johnson         1:17:56
I read about it and saw it, like because it was mixed up it was kind of subtly and they're probably so happy that team is probably like they're like don't talk about us

Sammuel Moonie        1:18:08
Just like them and Target the target PR team is so happy right now because no one's talking about them everyone's talking about American so it's true they I think  they  managed to slide under the 

Kim Aimi                             1:18:16
or an astronomer 

Sammuel Moonie        1:18:18
Yeah, exactly so the so brands this is interesting, but you've got to fix the fundamentals right you're not in the news what do you what are you doing when we're not looking or when you're out of the news cycle 

What are you doing when we're not looking? Or when you're out of the news cycle, are you fixing the problem or are you making it worse? And that's the challenge for these brands and these leaders.

Kim Aimi                          1:18:31
And then on the flip side, I'm sure you've also probably read about Ralph Lauren's fall campaign.

Melinda Johnson         1:18:36
Oh, yes. People are loving the, like, I'm in the Northeast. So, all I like, people last week were like, are you going to mark this figure? And I'm like, no, I'm not, but I want to. 

Kim Aimi                            1:18:46
I mean, people are loving that. And that's America.

Melinda Johnson         1:18:50
Example of a well done, well campaign that was like based on insights.

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:18:54
And values. Because I think that brand has always been inclusive. It's true to their DNA. 

This has been such a lively conversation. So, we always have a closing question on the podcast. It's usually about who, what, or where is having a moment, but we've established that it is American Eagle for good, better, or worse. They are having a moment. So, our question today, what's more important, cultural impact or maintaining the status quo?

Melinda Johnson         1:19:24
Because when I hear status quo, I think, oh, status quo is like the world is constantly changing. If you just sit and stay in the same place, then that growth and those business and sales numbers you need long-term are just not going to be there. I think it's critically important to have a pulse on who your consumer is and understanding their needs and talking to them and under like making sure that you know their needs and desires their issues their hang-ups all of the things so that you can deliver products services etc. that meet those needs that's and so the cultural impact piece and of course as marketer, you want to do it with impact in a meaningful way that can drive kind of that brand love over time. 

So that's always going to be a more winning play. There's no growth from the status quo. So that would never be the angle I would take. It is a choice, but that is not to me a winning plan. Do nothing is never a winning plan. It's usually not a winning plan.

It may feel safe to some. And it may, you know, we were talking earlier about short-term impact versus long-term. But long-term, you're not going to move the needle if you stay in the status quo.

Kim Aimi                            1:20:40
Culture changes so fast. And so, to maintain relevancy, you've got to keep up with it. You can't stop being curious. You can't stop wanting to try new things. Culture moves so fast that it's, I mean, look at AI. How do you even keep up with all the new applications and tools that are happening every day um but especially for when you're trying to get after these younger audiences like your Gen Z your gen alpha is whoever's next it's very different from the worlds that we all grew up in if you want your company to last right like looking beyond the short-term gains then you've got to be able to change with culture 

Sammuel Moonie        1:21:26
Absolutely I love that I'm you've got to be able to change with culture. Absolutely. I love that. I'm lucky and fortunate enough to be friends with Dr. Marcus Collins, who's written a book called For the Culture, and Dr. Anastasia Karklinia-Gabriel, who's written another great book called Cultural Intelligence for Marketers.

So based on their wisdom, with their PhDs, with their expertise on culture, I'm always going to back culture over the status quo because I'm learning from them back culture and over the status quo, because they are, I'm learning from them, because they're the experts. So, I'll just say, yes, I agree with them. And I'm not going to say much more, because they know what they're talking about. So absolutely, not the status quo, definitely the cultural impact.

Haley Knott                   1:21:58
Need to add those books to my reading list. Because I feel like I've just in my profession, I've been a social media consumer, since probably I was too young to be on the internet. And I've been a social media manager professionally for this is my 10th year. So, culture is something that you know, I've approached my life. It's, you know, very, very, let me start that over …

Culture is how I approach my life. I look through life through a lens of culture. So, the impact that of everything that I do is always through that lens. So that's always going to be how I move through the world. 

Aja Bradley-Kemp      1:22:46
So, I think we unanimously agree. Cultural impact is more important to the bottom line. Thank you, guys, so much for being here and for helping us have such a robust conversation. And I think productive as well, and look forward to seeing, you know, what American Eagle does. And maybe we need to come back and have a part two in a couple of months. See how it all turns out.

Sammuel Moonie        1:23:08
Thanks.

Haley Knott                   1:23:09
Thanks so much for inviting me.

Kim Aimi                            1:23:10
Thank you, Aja.

Aja Bradley-Kent         1:23:11
Thank you again to all our panelists for being here. Now, before you go, Moment Makers, I would greatly appreciate it if you rate, subscribe, review, and share the show with your fellow marketers, creators, and culture shapers. It helps more people discover us.

You can follow us on social @MakingTheMomentPod and visit MakingTheMomentPod.com for bonus content, show notes, and ways to connect. Until next time, don't be afraid to make your mark and make the moment.